Finam.FM

Sukhoi Ostatok April 06, 2010, 21:05

What will the global economy be like after the crisis? What will be the driver of development?

PRONKO: Good afternoon, Ladies and Gentlemen, Yury Pronko is at the microphone. This is daily program "Sukhoi Ostatok" at Finam FM radio. Today we will have not quite an ordinary program: we meet with the quests who visit us fairly seldom. We usually discuss the current financial and economic situation and situation on the market but today we will speak about education and, of course, about the processes that are registered in Russian and international economies. I will introduce my today's guests with pleasure. This is Anders Liljenberg, dean of Stockholm School of Economics, Russia. Good afternoon, Anders.

LILJENBERG: Thank you, good afternoon.

PRONKO: This is director of Executive MBA General Management program of Stockholm School of Economics Russia Alexey Popov. Glad to see, Andrei, good afternoon. Interpreter Ksenia will help us to communicate. Good afternoon, Ksenia.

KSENIA: Good afternoon.

PRONKO: I have the first question. Anders, as I understand, Stockholm School of Economics has not come to Russia accidentally. You have something to tell and something to teach Russians. Very often, especially during the period of the crisis, I hear the opinion that the liberal concept and marketing economy in general had a kind of collapse after the events of 2008-2009 and large-scale state regulation and large-scale nationalization of assets was coming to replace it. What will you say about this?

LILJENBERG: It seems to me that you have raised a very interesting question now. Such possibility is really discussed all over the world and what has happened in the last two years is a fairly natural process, this economic decline and recession, especially to the degree to which it has influenced financial markets. Along with this, in my opinion, we should not dramatize these events and if something has not worked this does not mean that the entire system is not working. There are definitely fairly many self-regulation institutions in the economy but even they cannot exist without certain support on the part of the state, without any institutions in the society. All markets are interconnected today, if the markets are really free, but nonetheless this freedom does not mean complete separation from the state. We can learn many things at this point and draw conclusions for the future.

PRONKO: Mr. Professor, but Chicago School of Economics of Milton Friedman is very well known and it is very often criticized and accused of ultra liberalism, defending of the principle of exclusive private initiative and practically absolute non-interference of the state. Is Stockholm School of Economics principally different from the Chicago one? If this is so, in what do you differ from them?

LILJENBERG: You have raised a very interesting and simply perfect question now. You are absolutely right in discussion of Chicago School. We understand that whereas in the past here was a fairly clear division among different academic institutions and among the ideas that they promote, now the world has become more multifaceted and majority of academic institutions promote a comprehensive approach to everything that they teach. Friedman received his Nobel Prize in economics in 1976 but in 1974, before him, the Nobel Prize was divided by two scientists. This is Hayek and Swede Gunnar Myrdal. Hayek was close to Friedman in his ideas and he believed that marketing economy was something natural, which developed by itself, did not require any framework and limitations and was not a product of human activity, this was what appeared by itself. Gunnar Myrdal stuck to more institutional ideas. He even published a book about this with the relevant examples. We in Stockholm School of Economics do not develop any extreme ideas, that is we do not say that something should be done this way and not otherwise, we stick to a more integral approach.

Clearly, the West including Sweden had much more time to come to such view at the things and marketing economy developed there for a longer period than in Russia. Even ten years ago students told me when I came to teach to Russia that markets meant freedom and markets could be only free. I answered them: try to come to a bar somewhere in California and have a smoke and you will learn the limits of this freedom.

We believe that marketing economy and market are definitely opportunities but these are opportunities that exist in certain framework, in certain limitations and a state support and the relevant institutions are necessary for the market to develop normally. We all understand that businessmen are people and people make mistakes and that is why some social limitations are necessary for their activity. Hence, we presume that it would be wrong to speak only about the planned state economy like it would be wrong to speak about an absolutely free marketing economy too. What we need is combination of both and a balance.

PRONKO: Alexey, I wish to learn your opinion about this too. Besides the people who stick to the opinion about balance or, on the other hand, besides the people like Friedman there is also Krugman. Incidentally, each of them received a Nobel Prize of his own and each of them has his own support. What would you say, what is your opinion?

POPOV: I wish to say that you took a very high pitchy having directed the conversation to the level of macroeconomic analysis and, of course, Stockholm School of Economics has a sufficient weight in the world of this research and in these views and the Swedish economy is actually an interesting example. In any case, if we go down to earth, I would say that in Russia Stockholm School of Economics acts as a normal business school. This means that we offer education for managers of companies and this is not as much economic education and macroeconomic one as teaching to run business.

PRONKO: But a certain model is chosen?

POPOV: Yes, I simply wished to answer through my personal experience, through our everyday work because we communicate with a big quantity of managers of Russian companies who study in our school and, of course, the matters of arrangement of efficient economy are on the surface to them despite that every day they work on absolutely different tasks of business management.

PRONKO: But as I understand, they are actually this economy, or the companies that they manage.

POPOV: Yes, and the matter of how the market is arranged and how it is regulated by the state is one of the most vital and important for them because this has become especially important in Russia now. It is interesting for me to see how our students take the knowledge and the practices taught by Western lecturers. Sometimes this context about which we speak now is manifested in the context of teaching: they learn now how the state should behave but simply at an example of a certain situation, how it has been settled in the West, how a business becomes efficient, on account of what it becomes competitive, from this context it is seen that the role of the state is in a very big degree of support and development of certain institutions. As Anders has said, these are not extremes" this is not an extreme of protectionism and not an extreme of absolute anarchy, this is a very wise role that consists of creation of conditions that force business feel pressure from existing competition and this very pressure forces business to get improved all the time, to produce new high-quality products and services and so on.

This is a long conversation about to what this leads and how efficient this becomes. In any case, it is necessary to understand the role of the state as a role of the entity that creates correct conditions for business in which it is possible to find the only way of getting profit and super profit only in improvement of your business model and not in an attempt to take some administrative resources, rare resources and to get some administrative rent. 

PRONKO: This is if the state makes really correct decisions. However, the state sometimes makes wrong decisions but this is a topic of another conversation.

We will be interrupted for a small pause but afterwards we will continue our conversation in "Sukhoi Ostatok."

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PRONKO: Today in "Sukhoi Ostatok" we have Dean of Stockholm School of Economics Anders Liljenberg and director of Executive MBA program of Stockholm School of Economics Russia.

I would like to speak about education proper now. Alexey has said that the people who study either have business already or are hired by business. Anders, what do they get in Stockholm School of Economics? Which knowledge? For me as a person who has graduated from the economic department and who is a macroeconomist by profession it is difficult to understand what can the initiative people who have decided to establish their business or they have acquired some assets that should be developed further be taught. As I understand, you help them.

LILJENBERG: Really, what can these initiative and ambitious people be taught? In reality, it is necessary to think about whom we teach and who are these people first of all.

We have basic programs, these are bachelor programs that are ready in Stockholm and Riga now and will appear in Russia in the near future. What we have happening in Russia now are Executive MBA programs that are attended mostly by people older than 30, that is they are around 30-35, they have already had a career in business, they have already acquired some experience and they have already achieved professional success. What can we teach them? First of all, we try to make it so that when they leave they acquire a certain set of skills, some basic tools that will help them in life definitely. This is knowledge in the field of accounting, human resources management, finance, strategy and other similar fairly standard things. Along with this, we would like to create a platform for them on the basis of which they can analyze their own success in the future and understand why they have managed to achieve this success and, if they have not achieved the success yet, to understand why this has not happened like this happens due to creation of special atmosphere in groups and classrooms. At Executive MBA courses we achieve this very atmosphere, what we call networking: when people get acquainted with each other, communicate and establish personal and business contacts. From our point of view this is a key to efficient teaching and efficient obtaining of knowledge, what provides the maximum result because participants of these programs make a huge contribution to obtaining of knowledge by themselves. This means that it depends primarily on them how they perceive this knowledge. This is like reading: by and large, a reader is an author of the book he reads. It is necessary to be in a correct state of spirit to perceive the ideas that the author has embodied into this book. If you read Dostoevsky and are not tuned to him, you will not understand what Dostoevsky writes about.

Stockholm School of Economics has been present in Russia for a fairly long time and we wish when our students leave the school to start doubting some truths in which they have believed for the whole life, we wish them to be thrown a kind of challenge at these courses and lessons to which they should somehow respond intellectually. We strive for a situation when after education in Stockholm School of Economics they start looking at the familiar things in a new way. In our teaching we put a smaller emphasis on the aspect of conveying of some practical skills that I have mentioned and it is more important for us to help people to look a the familiar things in a new way and this atmosphere of cooperation, atmosphere of establishment of contacts and friendship is more important for us. In my opinion, friendship is the main guarantee of success of teaching.

PRONKO: Alexey, look, as Anders has said that it is necessary to look in a new way at familiar things and to bear in mind the thoughts inherent to these initiative people. There are different schools and different methods of teaching in Russia. Why is this program unique then? There should be a certain unique feature? There should be. Moreover so that people who come here to get MBA education are 30-35 years old, that is they are also a young generation.

POPOV: Yes, this is a young generation. In genera, we do not have any age limitations, most diverse people come to us and people at the age from 25 to 50 and more are in one group. From this standpoint the audience is the most diverse. You know, if you look at programs of various business schools and not only in Russia but also in the world, I think that you will not draw a conclusion about uniqueness of some school. In any case, every school is unique in its own way and, thanks the Lord, there is already a sufficient quantity of schools of a good level in Russia.

I believe that uniqueness of a school is manifested not in the program but in creation of this atmosphere and a certain method about which Anders has spoken.

We put a very strong emphasis on this networking but there are also the things that are probably inherent to Swedes, we cannot get away from peculiarities of Swedish culture and there happens a very interesting collision of cultures.

PRONKO: You feel this.

POPOV: Yes, I feel this and this may be fairy painful, believe me. In reality, there is a kind of cultural conflict at the beginning of the program because our audience, even if these are developed managers wise with experience, especially those who already know how to run business, they sometimes are waiting for some ready-made solutions, some correct answers, some new technologies: do this and that. However, the Swedish culture is a very discussion and variable one, it allows existence of a big quantity of points of view on the same problem. That is why when lecturers speak about some case or some business practices they make the audience discuss, share its opinion but at first people have a certain feeling of non understanding left: where is the correct answer?

PRONKO: This means that the correct answer is in diversity. So it happens.  

POPOV: Each situation has its own answer. There are no such business truths that you can take a book and do something.

Along with this, in the process of education people absorb such an interesting view that we are all different, it is possible to learn from everyone, as we say, participants learn from each other and this is a very important, the group gives itself very much. Why Anders says that we get used to have one look at familiar things and afterwards the look becomes different? Because when a person sees what is happening near him, in another industry, when he sees how these matters are settled in the West, this is a matter of even not education but a matter of broadening of outlook and understanding of the world, understanding that there are different possibilities of action in this situation. There is also enrichment. This means that the program is a kind of arsenal of means and what the person uses after the program depends on how well he learns these means and can use them later.

PRONKO: This is interesting. We will be interrupted by news of the middle of the hour and after that we will continue our communication in "Sukhoi Ostatok." Look, on the one hand, this is a kind of cub where there is a special atmosphere and where relations are established. On he other hand, there are certain peculiarities of Stockholm School of Economics that brings also Swedish culture here and, as Alexey Popov puts this, there is a kind of collision. I will ask our today's guests about this for sure already after the news of the middle of the hour.

(News)

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PRONKO: I remind, this is "Sukhoi Ostatok" program on Finam FM radio and we receive Anders Liljenberg, Dean of Stockholm School of Economics, and Alexey Popov, director of Executive MBA General Management program of Stockholm School of Economics Russia.

Anders, with regard to collision of different cultures about which Alexey has spoken, his is very interesting, especially at the very first lessons. I wish to understand, nothing personal, are Russians prepared to absorb what you give them? I mean the knowledge and the experience that you share because this is Swedish experience.

LILJENBERG: I think that it is the best to answer this question with the following.

We have been present in Russia for 13 years already. If Russians were not ready to absorb this experience we would not have achieved such success here.

That is why I would say that they are definitely prepared. As a lecturer I wish to say that teaching in Russia is a unique experience and I tell all my colleagues in Stockholm about this: come to Russia and teach here. This will be one of the most difficult experiences of your life because people expect very much and it will not be easy for you to be in the classroom but you will feel these emotions and these expectations of people. It would be difficult but, definitely, this will be one of the most inspiring experiences of your life because you will feel energy of these people, you will see openness of these people to new ideas. You will get a feedback because feedback comes here in Russia without delays immediately due to the Russian culture.

PRONKO: How does this happen right during the classes: how do you feel this Russian culture and feedback? What is it like?

LILJENBERG: People are involved. If you say something and they cannot track your thought, they will tell you about this immediately. My personal experience shows that people here have got used probably to a slightly different style of teaching, to a different atmosphere in a kind of Soviet context. In our culture it is necessary to set a kind of new task permanently. Here people wish to be thrown a challenge and set some new tasks too.

PRONKO: Are you not prepared for this?

LILJENBERG: We are prepared! Every day! This is the way in which people learn.

Sometimes people in the classroom also feel some unpleasant moments at first but afterwards, when you disclose an algorithm and when you show how this happens in reality, they remember this better. If they do not force themselves, if they do not overcome themselves, they will not learn anything.

I can mention an example of how I forced my students to read a book on sociology many-many years ago. I told them that this was an interesting way to study marketing. At that time people criticized me: what for is it necessary to do this, we do not wish to waste the time on this! But I forced them and force and met with graduates of that course many years later. They approached me and said, thank you, Anders, thank you because you have forced us, now we understand why you have forced us to read that book. This happens permanently, every now and then.

So, if you wish just to have fun, you do not come to Stockholm School of Economics but if you wish to make your life into something, if you wish to learn something, come to us.

PRONKO: Alexey, does this work? You understand, examples are always interesting for me. Now Anders mentioned the example of the book on sociology when students did not wish to read and he …

POPOV: I remember this example well, I have studied there myself.

PRONKO: Well, wonderful!

POPOV: I remember that book, it was nearly of the 19th century. This probably shows the broadness of the views of the lecturers.

Our students say too, "You have old cases of 1995." What is the difference! If there are some things that are interesting to study in business, especially those connected with behavior of consumers, connected with the ways in which companies developed their strategies, learned to manage people, to develop their resources, this is not very important, this is not like a Hollywood movie that should be only yesterday or today. There were wonderful examples in business twenty years ago, for example, in Japan, that serve as perfect examples even today.

So, what Anders says about how this is perceived by students, that they perceive this painfully and manage to do something afterwards, it seems to me that so it should be. There should be a moment of overcoming. This means that an educational program, I think in any business school, it should not as much give some ready-made knowledge like it is when you buy some packaging in a store, this program should change people and should develop them.

That is, it is impossible to take knowledge in the classroom in the form of a book, printout or floppy disk, take away and say that I have received knowledge.

PRONKO: How does this happen in life? It is necessary to teach people to think tactically and strategically, to force them to work with their brains. How can this be done?

POPOV: Yes, I think you are right when you say that people should be taught to do something, not to know but to do. Is thinking doing too? This means that it is necessary to think in a different way, to perceive in a different way, to analyze in a different way and to learn to behave in a different way in some difficult managerial situations.

There are different forms of education. Honestly speaking, we do not have lectures, we do not have standard of education that is called lecture when, if you remember when you have studied at the economic department, you have probably sat in a big classroom and have written and made shorthand records …

PRONKO: After that there were colloquiums, seminars etc.

POPOV: Yes.

PRONKO: Well, we all passed this in the past.

POPOV: We have actually a conversation, this is a conversation of a lecturer with the audience, this is called interactive learning. The lecturer communicates with the students all the time and they all work in teams, they share their experience and they ask questions. If the lecturer speaks for ten minutes but they do not ask questions, I will have a big question to the lecturer, if he hears where he is and with whom he works at all.

There are also many other forms: there are business games, simulations, cases, presentations, some group exercises, very many different things. In realty there is a big development of people and it is impossible to do development of human qualities by some simple l. This means, you know, even if a presentation is made for the audience this is sometimes a serious challenge for many people.

PRONKO: What kind of presentation is this?

POPOV: Well, they need to defend their opinion. Our students compete within the teams against each other: hey fulfill some ask and propose solutions and offer them for common view by a team. Each team arranges its own presentation, it should defend its point of view and there is a kind of discussion, so to speak, it is necessary to be able to sell an idea. So, this is also a kind of rivalry and an art of persuasion… Incidentally, we teach even rhetoric, students should know how to conduct negotiations, should be able to persuade and should know how to speak in public. This is also a part of the managerial positions.

PRONKO: Anders, we say that there was a certain period in Russia, there were its own traditions, a very good fundamental science, so to speak, providing good knowledge but absolute impractical. It is necessary to change the situation now, right? Alexey mentions a certain example of tasks set that should be presented, defended and so on. Does the Russian audience perceive these things? To which extent is it adequate? Do you feel what is called interactive, is there really a feedback of a lecturer with students?  

LILJENBERG: Definitely. It happens simply every day. Going back to what you said, it is absolutely just that in the Soviet times and even now the general level of knowledge in the universities is on a very high level but also with this all this knowledge is not relevant for businessmen. There are two extremes. On the one hand, there is a Soviet professor, very literate, very experienced. On the other hand, we have education with elements of entertainment when people come simply to have a good time but to an educational institution. We are somewhere in-between: we wish to provide a sufficient load on people but along with this we wish to have a pragmatic anchor that ties them to business. We have a big quantity of lecturers, I am a lecturer myself, I am a professor and specialist in marketing, but I am also a practicing businessman, I know what is happening in the world of business today.

Very often people come to the classroom and say, "This is too academic, why is it necessary to do this in such way?" I answer them, "I know that you are right because this happens so in the real world but this academic knowledge is also important." Actually speaking, we differ in this because many business schools have either pure knowledge or only the business component. We have a combination and this is what distinguishes us against the background of other educational institutions.

In addition to this I would like to say when people come and start working in the interactive mode, some people think that you can say absolutely everything that comes to your mind during the discussion. We are an open organization but we have exams and you cannot pass the exam automatically, you should earn your certificate. That is why probably sometimes this atmosphere is spontaneous, insufficiently socially friendly and interactive but nonetheless, with regard to quality of the certificate, we guard it and we have very stringent requirements.

PRONKO: Anders, look, some Swedish companies that already have a transnational nature are well-known in Russia in general. I do not advertise anyone, this is Volvo, IKEA and some other serious producers. During this program I very often hear opinions of businessmen and entrepreneurs that it is very difficult to compose a business plan for such country as Russia, to promote this or that product because this is Russia. You teach in Russia and actually promote Stockholm School of Economics. Do you feel that there is really Russia and there is the rest of the world and not everything done there can be done here according to a pattern? If this is so, what are the nuances of difference, for example, between the Western community and Russia from the standpoint of teaching too?

LILJENBERG: Of course, Russia differs from other countries but Sweden has its own peculiarities and Germany has its own peculiarities and France has its own peculiarities. How can we do without this? We try to promote the programs that give a more comprehensive look at the world to the people. What do we offer? This is a fairly general information that can always be used and laid on your own context and we propose a certain model. But students tell us that Russia is Russia and this will not work here.

I would like to pay the due to Russia.

Of course, Russia has its own drawbacks and its own strong points but so it happens absolutely everywhere. We should never focus on the problems alone and say that these problems are objective. It is always necessary to think about yourself and about your capabilities, about how you can solve these problems yourself.

Going back to activity of Stockholm School of Economics in Russia, I would like to point out that we, definitely, encounter certain tasks and difficulties here: in Russia the marketing economy developed in the last 20 years and in Europe this took literally centuries. It is not easy for us here because the important institutions that have existed in Europe for many years only appear and get strengthened here. It is also possible to speak about antimonopoly law. Working out and fine tuning of this law is going on now and from this point of view situation is very difficult for small businesses now. That is why from our standpoint the main thing for Russia now is, of course, institutional construction and strengthening of laws. The second priority is definitely improvement of transparency for business.

It is also necessary to speak about problems and not to hide them, to solve them in what deals with me and my country. It seems to me that this is very important. In this aspect Russia differs from my country, from Sweden, because we have a very long accumulated experience of transparency in society and business.

PRONKO: Alexey, are there already examples, when people who get this education not have simply changed their life or world outlook but have really started promoting institutional reforms in the country, although this sounds very pathetically? There are already the axioms that should not be proven in a separate country again.

POPOV: If you mean those who have started proving this by deed, I think that this is applicable practically to all alumni, at least, to the overwhelming majority of them.

The reason is that in your question and in this topic in general I hear, although this may sound high-flown again, an address to ethic of business and to matters of social responsibility. In our school they are fairly close to everyone. We spoke about Sweden today. For me it was somehow amazing to feel a kind of Swedish spirit in business all the time. There is really such a big humanitarian component of the Swedish look at what is business in society in general. Many of the people who visited Sweden noticed that this country was very seriously oriented at support of various social initiatives of business as a part of public life in general and there were very many social programs there. Sometimes our people speak about Sweden jokingly that this is capitalism with a human face.

PRONKO: Or Swedish socialist. There are different political science definitions.

POPOV: Yes, we have not built it and they have built… This comes to the program, this comes to participants. You know we speak about what students learn now but in reality foreign lecturers probably do not teach this because for them this is something for granted.

PRONKO: And for us this is new.

POPOV: Yes, but when our people hear this, when they start understanding that competition there is not what is imagined as rivalry of sharks of capitalism in our country but an institution of the society necessary for development of businesses for the benefit of the society, for us these are probably some hollow high-flown words but for them this is actually understanding of business ethic. What for is competition necessary? Not for big profits but for improvement of the living standards of citizens in general.

PRONKO: Yes. The end consumer is the criterion for evaluation of any business.

POPOV: Yes. Students understand these things most likely sometimes even intuitively, understanding that a representative of an absolutely different culture in which business is adjusted in a different way is standing in front of them. A lecturer from the Netherlands have told me that it is easier for him to teach in Russia than in America because the things that deal with corporate social responsibility or stakeholders in business, the purpose for which the business exists, the ecosystem of business, the mutual connection of business and the state, are better understood by students in Russia than, for instance, in America. In America companies are very much oriented at increase of the shareholder value with all the relevant consequences.

PRONKO: I simply belong to the category of supporters of this very idea.

POPOV: Although the Russian environment is peculiar, it is close to Swedes in something in reality.

PRONKO: Is it close?

POPOV: Yes.

PRONKO: Well, terms like Swedish socialism or socialism with human face probably do not appear in the Russian language accidentally. This way or the other, this interconnection of times does exist. We cannot jump from one epoch to another. Although it ended in 1991 and 20 years passed, this was little and we needed more time.

My last question to you, Anders. This may seem a high-flown statement to you too but do you believe that time will come in Russia when the word "entrepreneur" causes not rejection but feeling of respect and pride for this figure and for this personality?

LILJENBERG: Definitely. I am not sure that "businessman" is an offensive word even now but I understand what you mean by your question.

Look, please, at your friends 100 years ago on the American continent, at those who laid the foundations of capitalism. Definitely, these were not he most obedient children in their families. Look at what was done in this country in the last 20 years. We understand all drawbacks of the current state of affairs but it is definitely possible to expect that this is a trajectory of permanent development and improvement. We are a part of this process and we make our small contribution turning Russia in the right direction, we contribute to modernization of the country and also try to spread the idea that it is possible to be a good businessman because you serve business but also your own country and your own nation. 

PRONKO: Alexey, I have the last question to you. I had this feeling right now when Anders was answering: is it possible to teaching people in Stockholm School of Economics here in Russia we prepare candidates for emigration, people who may decide, having obtained such perfect education, to quit this country and to have a career abroad due to various reasons, I do not ask you about politics?

POPOV: This is an interesting question and I agree with such formulation. It is important on the state scale now when people speak now about business school, about innovations, modernization, about stopping of brain drain, about turning of this drain in the opposite direction.

Incidentally, when we thing about development of bachelor programs in Russia now, we will be able to ask this question with regard to these programs too: what will happen to the young people who come to us to study right after school and get good Western certificates of bachelors of economy, will they work in Russia? Of course, we cannot answer all these questions definitely but let us look at the mutual connection: people stay here to work if they like the environment in which they live and work, if this environment contributes to their development. This environment is not created quickly but the environment is created by people. This means a vicious circle again. This environment will never be created until appearance of a critical mass of people who share these values and do something on their post in their companies. That is why it is necessary only to hope that the events are developing in the direction when an increasingly growing quantity of people shares these values including the values of capitalism with a human face, that business exists not for the people to hide their money in offshore jurisdictions but it exists for their children and grandchildren to receive education, to work and to get pleasure from life here. I think that this topic is especially important now when people speak about these science cities and about a possibility of creation of some environment…

PRONKO: They speak about valleys already.

POPOV: About the valleys. That is why I think we should hope that these people bring benefit to us. Honestly speaking, I do not remember any figures of our students emigrating somewhere. You know, it seems to me, that adult people who already work in business and come to get education, hey have already made their choice in reality and they wish to stay here because there are really very many opportunities here. No matter if there is crisis or there is not, talented and successful people develop themselves sufficiently well. We are grateful to them because they have chosen us in the past.

PRONKO: Along with this, Alexey, just agree that you give a possibility of choice to a person. I do not call on people to emigrate but if a person has perfect education, education of a Western economic school, if he receives an opportunity, if, as you say, the environment here is not satisfactory for him, why cannot he use the opportunity? So, in my opinion, the right of choice is the main thing that a person should have: if you wish, stay in Russia, if you wish, go abroad. You have such right and high-quality education, decide for yourself. In my opinion, this is the essence.

POPOV: This is absolutely right but understanding of this should lead us to a thought that the task of economy is not development of one small valley. This is creation of the level of life, quality of lie in the country as such in general. We cannot fence a territory by barbed wire and say that there is highly developed capitalism there and what is further is none of our business.

PRONKO: It is good that our incumbent politicians speak about this.

Thank you very much. Anders Liljenberg, Dean of Stockholm School of Economics, and Alexey Popov, director of Executive MBA General Management program of Stockholm School of Economics Russia, were at "Sukhoi Ostatok" today. Special thanks to you, Ksenia.

I hope that this has been our first but not the last meeting. It was very pleasant for me to get acquainted with you. Thank you and see you again.

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